Showing posts with label box. Show all posts
Showing posts with label box. Show all posts

Saturday, 18 June 2016

Does Consciousness Exist Outside the Brain?

written by Mathew Naismith

The following discussion is long and tedious and at times bitter but what the outcome of this discussion produces, is amazing to say the least. The discussion is based on my last post, "Putting Consciousness Into Perspective", but is primarily to do with consciousness being able to exist outside of the human brain. Also, some of the links I supplied might be of interest to some people.

Please bare with me, I have to prompt some people in opposition to my ideas at times to get the truth out in the open, I'm not interested in untruths. Prompting means to incite a discussion that tells of the opposing parties true intentions. I'm very good at this and it does take me to be tough on a person at times, basically, tough love. I wouldn't call this a pleasant discussion by far but at times we need to put up with the unpleasantries to get to what is pleasant for us, the world the way it is, is a good indication of this.            

Consciousness is not "the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge", though knowledge may be acquired while conscious.

There is no "physical consciousness". Consciousness is a pattern within, or functioning of, a physical brain.

Consciousness is not "the act of acquiring awareness". That is the act of becoming conscious itself.

"The mental aspect is the same in the physical as it is of the non-physical, the only difference is, the physical existence needs a brain to process these mental actions and processes, the non-physical doesn't need a brain, it works with the mind"
No, consciousness is the functioning of a physical brain. There is no "non-physical" consciousness that does not need a brain.

A brain is still a brain without a mind. It just isn't functioning. But a mind is not a mind without a brain.

Consciousness is not a "non-physical entity". It is not an entity at all. it is a state of a mind.

Let's put this simply, without any "woo"...
The mind is the functioning of a brain.
Consciousness is an emergent property of a complex brain.
Easy-peasy. Nothing mysterious about it.

My Reply
There are a number of dictionary interpretations that say otherwise Bruce, but all these kinds of interpretation denote is a physical perspective over and above a non-physical perspective. 

"A brain is still a brain without a mind. It just isn't functioning. But a mind is not a mind without a brain."

So how do ghosts/spirits interact in a physical existence when they don't themselves have a physical brain? The only way you could answer this is state that ghosts don't exist when they obviously do. Science studies have proven that the mind exists outside the body. 

You put the physical before the non-physical therefore you will never be able to comprehend what I am talking about, you have proven the points I made in the post Bruce. 

Your in a box and this box is labeled physical, that is all you can perceive because you are in this box, easy-peasy, nothing complicated about this. 

People like myself are out of that box you labeled physical, therefore, we our perspectives and perception are much broader than the box labeled physical.

Bruce, in a million years you will never WANT to see this will you? If you are happy existing in your box, that's good as I am happy existing outside your box labeled physical.

What, stating facts instead of fiction Bruce. It is well known in psychology that we do indeed put ourselves within a box and this is where we perceive from, of course the box gives us a bias perspective as you have quite clearly displayed here Bruce. There is a much bigger world outside the box Bruce.......

You stated fiction, not facts. Fantasy, not reality.
I stated facts. I described both mind and consciousness in simple terms. Both of my descriptions are empirically supported. Yours are not.

It is well known in psychology that we do indeed put ourselves within a box and this is where we perceive from
So what?

of course the box gives us a bias perspective as you have quite clearly displayed here Bruce
You've yet to demonstrate that. All you've demonstrated is that you can't defend your ideas.

There is a much bigger world outside the box Bruce.
I'm glad you've noticed. Why don't you come out and play with all the rational intelligent people?

My Reply
The dictionary interpretations I read contradict your own for starters. So according to you, dictionaries are fictional......!!! 

Through a number of science experiments conducted, they have concluded that the mind does indeed exist outside of the body but there is no way you will comprehend this Bruce, this is inevitable as no doubt you will prove. Can you now see the box you are trying to perceive the rest of existence through? 

Anyone for starters who clearly states that dictionary's are fictional, are certainly existing in a box Bruce.

Please provide a link to the "dictionary definitions" you used.
I just think your dictionaries are fictional.

Through a number of science experiments conducted, they have concluded that the mind does indeed exist outside of the body
No, they have not. Now you are just flat-out lying.

Are you ever going to get around to defending your ideas? I'm getting tired of waiting. One might almost conclude that you cannot....

...and I see you've spammed this to a dozen different communities. What a dick move.

My Reply
Word web, consciousness: An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation

Being that consciousness is obviously cognitive, cognitive interpretation is as follow, " The mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses."

Now I know for a fact you will screw this around but consciousness is being cognitive, this is a fact Bruce.

"The state of being aware of and responsive to one’s surroundings: " 

I think a cognition relates to being aware would you not? You made the mistake in not thinking in terms of cognitive did you not Bruce? Big mistake.......Consciousness, an alert cognitive state, so what you are saying is consciousness isn't a cognitive state, obviously? 

Now for my evidence of the mind being able to exist outside of the physical brain.

So if I'm lying and unintelligent, unlike yourself of course, all these far more intelligent people than you are also lying according to your obvious bias perception? You have once again proven that you do indeed exist in a box labelled physical. 

In a million years my friend, you will not concede you are wrong in any sense, this will be obvious in your replies. Get out of your box Bruce, it's making you look awfully stupid my friend.

By the way, I can, in time, produce future links to state how much of a liar I'm not and how ignorant you are if you like.

Further proof that souls exist which means so does the mind outside of the body.

Extract: A PAIR of world-renowned quantum scientists say they can prove the existence of the soul.

Of course all these people are far more unintelligent than Bruce, he will obviously tell us so. I think these people are no doubt far better educated than Bruce but Bruce is still more intelligent according to Bruce. That bias perception giving a bias perspective again caused by existing in a box, will these people ever wake up from out of the illusion? We better hope they do one day.... 

I will in time produce more info and links to many more people who are liars and far less intelligent than Bruce even though Bruce isn't even a scientist, it would seem, or quantum physicist. The box can certainly delude us.

"Word web, consciousness: An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation"
...which is not how you defined it in your post. As I pointed out in my first reply.

"Now I know for a fact you will screw this around but consciousness is being cognitive"
Consciousness is cognitive.
Learning is cognitive.
That does not mean that Consciousness is learning. That's a logical fallacy.

Consciousness is the state of being aware.
Cognition is the state of learning.
Learn the definitions of the words you use.

"Now for my evidence of the mind being able to exist outside of the physical brain."
Peer-reviewed research, please. And present your argument. I don't debate with links. Demonstrate you understand what they are saying.

"So if I'm lying and unintelligent, unlike yourself of course"
I'm more honest than you, and far smarter.

I await your peer-reviewed research demonstrating mind/body dualism...

My Reply
It would seem we are going to continue is this charade.

Try to be conscious without being cognitive, you're actually saying a consciousness can. Consciousness is being cognitive. It is also obvious you didn't know this because you should have mentioned it earlier but you didn't. 

What I explained what consciousness is, is correct because I didn't say the definition of consciousness did I, I only stated consciousness did I not? Your not very observant Bruce, that bloody box again!! 

By the way, there is a big difference between definition and interpretation but of course you don't know this either it would seem. Get out of that box Bruce...

So being aware through being conscious isn't learning through being aware!! 

"I'm more honest than you, and far smarter'.

So calling people names is a sign of intelligence Bruce, I don't think so especially when that name calling isn't backed up with evidence as I have produced. 

"I await your peer-reviewed research demonstrating mind/body dualism..."

So on all the info I supplied from far more intelligent people than you or I, even if you don't think so, this is your reply, your kidding me aren't you.......!! 

Because you are far smarter than I, you demonstrate that you know what they are stating. I think my post certainly demonstrates that I know what they are stating but you won't ever have this will you?

Bruce, give us sound evidence that I lied, good luck on this because I have already proven otherwise haven't I? But not to anyone in a box.... 

Bruce, it's not a good idea confronting people like myself like you have here, all you have proven is how bias and unobservant you are as of anyone stuck in a box would be. 

You absolutely have no idea what I am talking about Bruce which again proves my point about the box. You have proven how unobservant you are as you have proven how observant I am and that my friend is a fact. You of course won't see this either sadly enough

Interpretation: A mental representation of the meaning or significance of something 

Definition: A concise explanation of the meaning of a word, phrase or symbol 

There is a huge difference in their meaning. I stand by my explanation, cognitive represents consciousness as consciousness is represented by a cognitive factor. 

Once again, give us evidence I lied Bruce, at least give us this.....

Reply from another member

Play nice everyone ;)
I personally find your different perspectives very interesting and thank you both for engaging.

My Reply
 Everyone's perspectives are interesting but I don't think Bruce thinks this, I suppose that's why he stooped to name calling. 

What's interesting is that one of us is calling the other person names when replying to them, while the other person has always used the persons actual name when in reply. 

I think my physical pain is getting to me, too much typing in a short time space which makes the discussion even more interesting.

I might have to apologise to Bruce, I have been a little rough on him but it has been interesting, it confirms my perceptions and perspectives in a number of different ways unbeknownst to Bruce.

It's very interesting what that box has created, this is the illusion being that all we are is this box.

Reply from another member
I'm really just learning about all this, but I'm always ready to hear arguments on any side. 

I will reiterate to you both, though, to please be civil where you attack the contention, not the person.

My Reply
You and me both otherwise I wouldn't bother acknowledging Bruce. 

I should ease up on Bruce, I've prompted him way too many times but it's been interesting all the same.

My follow up reply
The following is an interesting read on why attributing consciousness to the physical brain is absurd.

Extract: Consider this an open letter to philosophers, brain researchers, physicists, technocrats, Ray Kurzweil, and TED executives who censored lectures on consciousness by Graham Hancock and Rupert Sheldrake.

Conventional science readily admits (insists) that the brain is made of the same particles that constitute everything else in the universe: rocks, chairs, comets, meteors, galaxies. According to conventional physicists, these particles are not conscious. Therefore, there is no reason to conclude the brain is conscious. The brain has no more ability to spawn consciousness than a rock does. End of story. End of proof. You’re welcome. Of course, a few scientists will argue (and many more will privately believe) that, since we humans ARE conscious, this proves the brain is producing consciousness—because, where else could we look for an explanation? Which is called circular reasoning. Meaning: you already assume what you’re trying to prove. Any first-semester logic student would mark that argument INVALID. Some scientists, suddenly invoking a brand of mysticism they otherwise deplore, claim the unique complex configuration of particles called the brain somehow—in this one case—has a capacity to break every rule in the book and deliver consciousness. But no proof, just faith. Supposition.

To me, to take a solid unwithering stand that consciousness can't possibility ever exist outside the brain, is an indication of utter blind faith, a consciousness entrapped in a box of dogmatic beliefs and concepts based purely on bias. Consider this, how would a consciousness entrapped in a box behave otherwise but bias and bias to the extreme. This sounds awfully like I'm talking about an extremist religious ideology but I'm not, I'm speaking of the bias and extremism of science........

I however don't exactly agree in the statement that certain physicists state that consciousness is in rocks, trees and so forth, I once read that these physicists state that everything has a form or kind of consciousness, meaning, not everything has a consciousness like humans for example but I could be incorrect in this. Basically, this article supports my scientifically supported suppositions and conjectures in regards to my post.

The discussion is continuing which in my mind isn't worth mentioning, the following is my last sensible reply in regards to this discussion.


This is interesting, our discussion has been primarily on the physical aspects of consciousness, basically, a consciousness that is cognitive, cognition being "The psychological result of perception and learning and reasoning" (Word Web).

In my post, I had a different interpretation of non-physical consciousness than of cognition for a very good reason, that reason being that not all non-physical consciousness is cognitive for the pure fact such consciousness isn't psychologically represented. I'm not about to go into this to why this is so on here.

What I am stating also is that awareness, which obviously takes a consciousness of some kind, is of learning, even when the physical conscious mind is unaware, the physical, and most likely non-physical, unconsciousness is aware. So while we are asleep, unconscious, we are not suppose to be aware and learning? This seems to be what is being stated by certain people here, even when we are physically unconscious, we are still learning because we are still aware be it in a different format. Has anyone heard of sleep learning to begin with?

Another point to make here is the way we analyse, if I was to totally pull apart a human body and totally segregate each part from the other, would we still call these segregated parts a human as opposed of being of a human. It's no longer a human especially when we segregate it, it's of parts of a human.

What some people are doing here in this discussion is the same, segregate everything and only mention what they want to acknowledge and still call it a holistic analysis. Not once has anyone of the opposing view to mine analysed the info I have given holistically. Certain people within science and spiritualty do the same if they want or desire a certain outcome other than what the holistic approach will produce/create. This is well known in the circles of psychology and quantum physics to occur. 

I could pull apart any fact and turn it into fiction, this is fact, the question is, would I be deceptive in doing so? Obviously......How often is factual life turned into fiction and of course visa-versa? This is one reason people like me can see through blatant deception  which is usually created by a consciousness being bias while stuck in a box.

My box analogy is certainly being proven here.

 Extract:Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. 

Where is the physical brain when two subatomic particles can communicate with each other over a long distance? Communication takes consciousness because one consciousness has to be aware of another consciousness to be able to communicate, in other words, self-awareness. This of course won't make any difference to a bias consciousness, this is going to be evident.  

Human consciousness has always evolved, just because we think we have found the right box, were not allowing human consciousness to evolve any further!! As human history quite plainly shows, there is no right box, only evolution......we are meant to evolve even if that means evolving into an entirely different species or entities.

I again apologise for the length and disposition displayed in this post.......      

Wednesday, 15 June 2016

Going Beyond Our Safe Havens

Written by Mathew Naismith 

Why would anyone want or desire to go beyond their own safe havens? Once acquired, to desire to venture out of this safe haven isn't desirable. Either acquiring a spiritual or materialistic safe house, or what ever, venturing out of or sacrificing this safe haven in anyway isn't desirable. A safe haven of course being an environment we have created for ourselves that we personally feel comfortable and secure in.

Venturing Out: People like myself could have stayed in our safe havens but we didn't, the reason for this isn't that simple to explain. By my early teens, I created this safe haven, this was primarily brought about by the environment I was experiencing at that time. Most often a destructive environment will entice us to build upon a safe haven, an environment that is more constructive towards our well being. I am now 52 years old and I still to this day often venture outside of this safe haven but for a very good reason. 

Venturing out from this peaceful tranquil state of consciousness isn't easy at times, in actuality, it can be quite traumatising, depending on the environment we put ourselves in. Firstly, people like myself don't judge one environment being any less worthy to experience than another, if we did, this would be a sure sign of bias and even prejudice. There is no awareness or wisdom to be acquired in being bias or prejudice or fixated to one kind of environment, while at the same time, deliberately ignoring other environments because we judge them as being unworthy, negative or bad in some way through bias and prejudice. No one becomes truly aware and wise through predominantly experiencing their safe haven. Yes, venturing outside this safe haven can be scary, basically, our safety blanket has been taken away from us, meaning, we feel more insecure away from this safe haven, but to become truly aware and wise, one must always venture out beyond our own set limitations.

Bias and Prejudice: Recently, a terrible catastrophe occurred, a number of adults where killed in Orlando USA, of course once again, another memorial will be set up  to remember these people who were massacred by a lone gunman. It's said to be the biggest mass killing/shooting in USA history, disregarding the slaughter of American Indians of course for starters. I wonder how many children and young women have been kidnapped and are presently being used as sex slaves, will a memorial and a remembrance day be forth coming for these people, which is by far a worse catastrophe than a single shooting which is now in the past? Most often these people end up dying in a bad agonising way.

Over in Palestine, women and children are presently being massacred and have been massacred for some years now void of any great outcry, unlike the shooting like Orlando. It's obvious that a genocide of a kind is presently going on, is NATO intervening, are the people tucked away in their safe havens intervening? Is their as big an outcry to the Orlando massacre by the rest of the western world compared to what is going on in Palestine or to child sex slavery? The answer is obvious.

Lets' put this in perspective, would the western world cry out more if a pregnant women was shot dead in the streets of a western country like Australia or the US or an eastern state/country like Palestine or Iraq? The answer again is obvious. How much of an outcry is there when pregnant women are shot in Palestine? Is it anywhere near to the outcry of the shooting of adult men in a western country like in Orlando? Can you now see the obvious bias an prejudice we have acquired through being shut away in our little safe havens, especially in the west? There is certainly no awareness or wisdom to be acquired through these kind of actions, the war will certainly continue only because we feel safe in our safe havens but this is an illusion and certainly not infinite.

Spiritual Safe Haven: As I have done, spiritually aware people, unlike materialists, try to create a safe haven where they always feel safe and secure and at peace or relative peace. Anything beyond this safe haven is usually judged as being bad or negative in some way, we don't often then venture beyond this safe haven, basically, we become limited to our haven or box. This box stops us  becoming aware of anything we have judged as being bad or negative compared to our own safe haven beyond this box. Just judge it so and so witch gives us a reason to stay ignorant to anything but of our safe haven. However, when a catastrophe like a shooting occurs, we are no longer able to stay within our box. It's OK that young children and young women are used as sex slaves and that far worse catastrophes are presently occurring around the world, which are still apart of our environment if we like it or not, no matter how much we shut ourselves up within our box.

We also have an excuse to shut ourselves up within this box, we can pray/meditate for peace, like the hundred monkeys theory where one hundred monkeys change the consciousness of all the other monkeys. We often do this but this theory doesn't work, obviously, as we have been doing this for thousands of years, human history is full of this, and the reason it doesn't work is that one opposing action will always cause another opposing reaction. Cause and effect come to mind, one opposing cause will only create an opposing effect. Sticking ourselves in a safe box is in opposition to what is judged by us thus in turn creating an opposing effect or reaction.

With the Orlando shootings, all this has told me is how bias and even prejudice we have become mainly because we have stuck ourselves in this box, within our little safe haven, which certainly keeps us ignorant to what is occurring in the rest of our environment.  Of course western people will deny everything I have stated here as negative and certainly not in reference to them, but the truth is in the pudding, we certainly need to wake up to this if we really want to make a long term difference.

Denial is a pretence to truth, however, eventually the real truth comes forth for pretence is only a transitory state that never lasts. Truth always prevails over pretence and denial for truth is anything but transitory.....Mathew


We don't have or create these safe havens (box's) for no reason, as I said, these box's are usually comforting to us and we often feel safer in these box's than outside the box, they are actually a must to balance out the external influences with internal influences. It's actually not good for a consciousness to feel unsafe (insecure) all of the times, in actuality, these box's help us cope better with existence as a whole either it be of materialism or spiritualism or what ever.

You could say that each box gives us a different perception of who we are as a whole, we however often become that fixated to a box, that all other box's (perceptions) just don't exist or their perceptions are above and more correct over all other perceptions (box's). Is spirituality some how above materialism? Is materialism some how above spiritualism? Each person within their box would state they are above the other in some way, this in turn shows us how bias each perception can become. 

Now a person who goes beyond the limitations of their own box to experience and become aware of other box's (perceptions), will of course become more aware and wise of the whole self while not judging one box being above another in anyway. All these perceptions make up a whole consciousness, take away a perception (box), you take away the wholeness of a consciousness. A fragmented consciousness will always lash out as one chosen box is above all other box's. Is science somehow above spirituality? A consciousness that is of the box of science, will say most definitely as would a consciousness of the box of spirituality. Within this mentality, each consciousness will stay ignorant to the other no matter what. We have actually created a reality based on this kind of ignorance and segregation, of course there's going to be no peace and harmony, only within our own box will this be the case.

Staying within our own box of course isn't going to bring a long lasting harmony either, each box eventually clashes with another box in the end unless we force our own perceptions (box) onto others so we all exist within one box and one box only. You could call this oneness being that all consciousnesses is forced to perceive the same, in actually, this is far from the truth. Oneness takes a consciousness to accept and become aware of all of the other box's (perceptions), not just one box.

Can our safe haven keep us bias/prejudice ignorant, hateful and intolerant of other people's safe havens? Recent and present events certainly say most definitely, for our own box certainly can create a bias and prejudice beyond the acceptance of other box's (perceptions). It's a sad day when one catastrophe becomes more of an issue than more serious grotesque catastrophe's happening in the world today at present. Human consciousness as a whole is screaming at us as each catastrophe is screaming at us to change our obvious bias and prejudices, the more we ignore this screaming, the more catastrophe's we will experience until we start to listen......